Comments on Above 49: Say No to "Fun"

@Graham It's getting a reasonable mass of peop...

2009-08-30T11:50:59.020-07:00

@Graham It's getting a reasonable mass of people to use the new word that's the tricky part. Clint managed to pull it off, more or less, with "ludonarrative dissonance" but it's not an easy act to repeat. For good or ill, we love to reinvent in the game industry, but it tools, engines or even terms.

@digitalkicks Yeah, it's a moment that most core gamers have had. Now we just to figure out how to tell non-core gamers about them so they can have them too =)

I wholeheartedly agree. I remember the first time...

2009-08-30T00:02:18.307-07:00

I wholeheartedly agree.

I remember the first time I played the original Fallout. I was in Junktown and got into an argument with a guard. To cut a long story short I ended up slaughtering most of the town.

I personally wouldn't have describe the experience as fun or even cathartic but it was engaging. Like something out of a Cormac McCarthy novel.

@Graham My captcha is pallam. I don't think it really has much of a ring to it.

This is neither here nor there, but it's alway...

2009-08-26T21:52:46.248-07:00

This is neither here nor there, but it's always bothered me that it's so hard to invent words these days. We have a (reasonably) clear definition. Now, we just need a word to map it to!

I hereby nominate whatever the next person's captcha word is. ;)

@JPLC Nice post, definitely good to see more folks...

2009-08-25T22:32:10.369-07:00

@JPLC Nice post, definitely good to see more folks rallying around this.

@JW I appreciate the situation you're present, but I'd say that boredom and engagement are mutually exclusive. Maybe you're "experiencing" a boring simulation, but it's not engaging unless it's worthwhile.

On a higher level, I don't think we'll ever find a perfect term. But I think engaging is closer than fun, and past the mark of "good enough." It's really just that fun has too much of baggage (especially for non-gamers) to be useful, just about anything else should be sufficient.

Ah, but using the word "enjoyment" negle...

2009-08-23T15:39:23.705-07:00

Ah, but using the word "enjoyment" neglects works that are not really enjoyable, but still important and engaging. Requiem for a Dream, for example, would not be called an enjoyable film by most (at least not by me). Even so, I think many would agree (or at least I do) that it is a worthwhile, engaging film, and it is worthy of a watch.

Or that's how I see it. I just think enjoyment is too close to fun while engaging encapsulates both fun and things that may not be fun, but still worthwhile.

I'm sorry I have to disagree... or at least al...

2009-08-23T14:32:55.294-07:00

I'm sorry I have to disagree... or at least allow me to play devil's advocate for the sake of discussion. While I understand the word "fun" is extremely subjective and difficult to define, I'm afraid the word "engaging" doesn't help (for me) much either. A virtual reality session or simulator can be very engaging without being fun. Perhaps it's a mandatory training course that puts the "player" in a 3D world and they truly feel immersed in the atmosphere but are still bored to tears.

At the risk of my own failed definition, a better E-word I think would be "enjoyment". Can the player walk away saying they enjoyed the experience or that they were (at least briefly at some point) entertained?

That's just my two cents. I enjoyed reading your post and appreciate the opportunity to leave feedback. Thanks!

It's nice to hear that others share the same v...

2009-08-23T12:56:18.012-07:00

It's nice to hear that others share the same viewpoint on "fun" and "engaging" as I. I even made a post about it on my blog a while back: http://mullingoverthemultiverse.blogspot.com/2009/07/why-goal-should-be-not-just.html (I also posted it on Gamasutra's member blogs). We even both use Reqiuem of a Dream as an example of an engaging, but important, work, uncannily.

When I posted it on Gamasutra, I even got a comment or two from others who had discussed "fun" and "engaging" as well in previous posts of their own. I hadn't been on Gamasutra in a while, so we all seem to have developed our ideas independently.

I guess the point of my rant of a comment is to point out that many people are starting to share the idea of the difference between "fun" and "engaging". I'm glad to see this is an idea that many people have come to.

Keep up the good posts.